The Marches Campaign

Scott · Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 5:33 pm Post subject: Alternative Magic System

As some of you know, I'm currently working on a purely "scratch built" OD&D campaign for future use. Our current campaign makes extensive use of published adventures, grafts from Moldvay Basic, and the usual OD&D monsters and treasures. The scratch built campaign, on the other hand, will be a more "pure" homebrew, using OD&D Vol. I: Men & Magic almost exclusively, with my own monsters, treasures, and system tweaks.

Luckily I'm in absolutely no hurry to get the scratch built campaign going, and have only vague ideas about where I'm going with it anyway.

One change I'm almost certainly making is the elimination of the Cleric class. Many Cleric spells will be folded into the Magic-User spell list. This will leave Fighting Man and Magic-User as the available classes, but there's a lot of room for customization and individualization within these very broad categories.

Another change I'm considering involves the so-called "Vancian" magic system. Before the publication of Greyhawk and The Strategic Review, there was nothing in the rules about how spellcasters memorized or re-learned their spells -- just a couple sentences about only being able to use spells once a day, etc. There wasn't anything to suggest that a spellcaster sat down and "memorized" spells into each slot.

Here's the sketchy, nuts-and-bolts version of the magic system I'm working on for the next campaign:

1. All spellcasters use books of spells.
2. All spellcasters have access, through their books, to all spells on the "Common" spell list for the levels of spells they can cast, as well as any spells they've individually researched.
3. All spellcasters cast their spells "spontaneously" -- that is, a spellcaster can cast *any* spell on his Common or individual spell list as long as he has the appropriate spell slot available.
4. Any particular spell may be cast only once in any 24 hour period. For instance, if a Magic-User casts sleep, he may not cast the sleep spell again for 24 hours, barring the use of some magical device like a scroll or wand.
5. Any particular spell slot is only available for use once in any 24 hour period. For instance, if a 1st level Magic-User casts a 1st level spell, his single spell slot is unavailable again for 24 hours. [This does add a minor level of bookkeeping, but I don't think it will be overly onerous, as OD&D Magic-Users just don't get that many spell slots.]

There are other wrinkles I'm messing with, such as foci, special ingredients, and so on. I'm trying to get away from the tendency to automatically import rules and assumptions from later editions and supplements into "three little books" OD&D, instead exercising a little creativity to come up with different ways to do things.
_________________
The penalty for success is to be bored by the people who used to snub you.

Scott · Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 5:58 pm Post subject:

Magic-User Spell List for upcoming campaign, assuming removal of Clerics

1st Level
Charm Person
Cure Light Wounds
Detect Magic
Hold Portal
Light
Minor Dweomer
Purify Food and Water
Read Languages
Read Magic
Sleep

2nd Level
Continual Light
Detect Invisible
ESP
Find Traps
Invisibility
Knock
Levitate
Locate Object
Phantasmal Forces
Speak with Animals
Wizard Lock

3rd Level
Clairaudience
Clairvoyance
Create Food
Cure Disease
Dispel Magic
Fire Ball
Fly
Haste Spell
Hold Person
Infravision
Insect Plague
Invisibility, 10' Radius
Lightning Bolt
Protection from Normal Missiles
Slow Spell
Water Breathing

4th Level
Charm Monster
Confusion
Create Water
Cure Serious Wounds
Dimension Door
Growth of Plants
Hallucinatory Terrain
Massmorph
Neutralize Poison
Polymorph Others
Polymorph Self
Remove Curse
Speak with Plants
Wall of Fire
Wall of Ice
Wizard Eye

5th Level
Animate Dead
Cloudkill
Conjure Elemental
Contact Other Plane
Feeblemind
Growth of Animals
Hold Monster
Magic Jar
Pass-Wall
Telekinesis
Teleport
Transmute Rock to Mud
Wall of Iron
Wall of Stone

6th Level
Anti-Magic Shell
Control Weather
Death Spell
Disintegrate
Geas
Invisible Stalker
Lower Water
Move Earth
Part Water
Project Image
Reincarnation
Stone to Flesh
_________________
The penalty for success is to be bored by the people who used to snub you.

Nick · (Sinlocah) Joined: 24 Mar 2008 Posts: 121

I know you said you do not want to incorporate later editions into your scratch built, but you might want to consider incorporating the per encounter idea for spell casting. This would eliminate book keeping all together and let you keep the spell use to a minimum (not that many rounds in combat).

Higher level spells would be a once per day thing, but not necessarily once per 24 hours. Assuming the players rest of 6 to 8 hours they could then cast high level spells again. Something to kick around.

Scott · Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 9:58 pm Post subject:

TheMyth · Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 11:26 pm Post subject:

I notice you removed both Raise Dead and Finger of Death.

How does Finger of Death compare to the Death Spell? Could FoD still work as a 5th level spell?

Also, I notice you've eliminated Raise Dead. An idea I had for my own house rules: How about link it to Animate Dead? It's like the same spell, but in one sense you raise the dead as undead...another way you raise them back to life!

Of course, this sort of makes Reincarnation useless...

TheMyth · Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 11:35 pm Post subject:

Oh! I see you added your new spell Minor Dweomor to your alternative spell list.

How would that work in a system where all spells are spontanteous?

So long as a spell slot is open, the Minor Dweomer power is available?

Might it not be better to make a class of spells/powers/talents/knacks like Minor Dweomer that Magic-Users can use outside the spell list?

[Kinda like Cantrips and Orisons but via a different mechanic...maybe a number per day = Intelligence?]

Oh, and what purpose will Wisdom serve in your newly imagined game?

I love House Rules!

[If they make sense...hehehe]

Scott · Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 11:37 pm Post subject:

Scott · Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 11:53 pm Post subject:

WyzardWhately · (Lars) Joined: 24 Mar 2008 Posts: 260

You've got a couple problems if you switch to spontaneous spellcasting.

1. It makes spellcasters substantially more powerful in an immediate sense - they'll always have the spell they want, insofar as they have open slots to cast with.

2. Having to find or research your spells gives differing magic users some individuality, - they're not all using identical spell lists.

Since it's fairly difficult to make characters very mechanically distinct already, and upper-level magic-users are already pretty damned powerful, I'd say this course of action seems unwise.

Scott · Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:45 pm Post subject:

TheMyth · Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:19 pm Post subject:

But here's the thing...

Your 12th level MU has access to 4 5th level spells. What's the typical configuration? Cloudkill, Feeblemind, Hold Monster, and Teleport? Imagine being able to use Teleport on the fly! Or Pass-Wall...or Wall of Iron...or even Growth of Animals.

Yes, it makes the MU more versatile, but s/he is still limited sharply by number of spells per day. The Fighting-Man can swing his sword [magical or mundane] every round. The MU still has limitation based on spell slots open.

I think the real test would be to see it in play...how would it work?

I doubt there'd be any real difference.

[of course, you could always institute a rule that MUs can switch out spells by making an INT roll or something. Memorized spells always work, but a roll under INT is needed to "spontaneously cast" anything in the spellbook].

WyzardWhately · (Lars) Joined: 24 Mar 2008 Posts: 260

Nick · (Sinlocah) Joined: 24 Mar 2008 Posts: 121

This conversation should probably wait and see what the designers of 4e have come up with. They have gotten rid of the Vancian system (mostly), which is what this conversation is all about; the benefits and draw backs of the 'memorize-cast-forget' spell system.

There are many ways to go about this. 4e is going with per encounter. I have seen Con and Int based systems, but those require more rolls. Warhammer RPG has unlimited casting but with a few caveats (namely, a demon may come out of the Warp and eat you). Point base systems that turn out to be not much different than 'memorize-cast-forget', and several others. Balancing the MU with other classes has always been a problem and I am not of the opinion that keeping the Vancian system, unless heavily modified, is the way to go.

Bhartec Redhands · Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:39 pm Post subject:

Warhammer Fantasy is one of the few magic system I liked pretty well. Mages can be rather nasty, even early on. However, unless the mage is tempered in its use he will eventually go insane or get corrupted.

With D&D magic, I don't think there are any particularly good fixes for it, and its not for lack of trying. The base system is just fundamentally simple (and flawed) and any change tends to be a rather drastic ones.

I'm fairly optimistic about 4e magic and I think it will work pretty well. I'm just worried that it will have changed enough that its not really D&D anymore at that point.

Nick · (Sinlocah) Joined: 24 Mar 2008 Posts: 121