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Nick
(Sinlocah)
Joined: 24 Mar 2008
Posts: 121
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 Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Bhartec Redhands wrote: | | 4th edition I have played a few times now and its an odd cat. Really if another publisher put it out with a different title and changed some of the names, I don't think it would be confused at all with 'D&D'. It plays more like a supers game now, and combat tends to be more involved and tactical. I'm reserving further judgment until I get a full adventure in at least, and learn the rules properly. |
I like the changes to D&D. As far as I am concerned it has been a supers game since 3rd edition. I suppose you could make an argument for 2nd ed. being that way at higher levels. What I beleive they have done with this most recent edition is take D&D into the action movie age. Combat is very cinematic. It is also very tactical. Many of the players abilities in combat are based on positioning or moving the enemy into a more advantageous position. I can't imagine playing this game without minis. Combat is no longer about running to meet the enemy and swinging your sword, and then swinging your sword, and then swinging your sword, and then swinging your sword...
I enjoy the fact that the characters can heal themselves, to a degree. Having a cleric in the party is a major plus but is no longer an absolute necessity. This healing ability also eliminates the 15 miniute dungeon crawl.
The skill system is a major improvement. They went with simple is better and I am glad they did. Having a few skills cover a large range makes them more important to all classes and more applicable during game play. The skill challenge system looks good, but we have not used it yet. Hopefully next session. These are my preliminary opinions, like Sam I have not really played it that much so I can't give a more informed opinion. When the group has gone through a few levels I will have a better idea if this edition of D&D did a better job of moving away from the dreaded 'sweet spot' of previous iterations. |
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Scott
Referee
Joined: 24 Mar 2008
Posts: 389
Location: Charleston, WV
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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I think the last edition that "feels like D&D" to me is 2nd edition, the core rules of which are unfairly maligned. Once it came out, I switched over and never looked back until I got all nostalgic and shit. My long Verbosh campaign was 2nd edition from about halfway through, I think.
(By the way, I just got my copy of Verbosh in the mail, and it hasn't aged well for me.  )
Even the early "Complete Handbooks" weren't bad if *everyone* picked a kit, or if you weren't a maniac for game balance. There's no law against PCs being kewl, which is why I don't take the existence of 3e and 4e personally. We had fun with 3e and I'm sure I'd have fun with 4e, I'd just rather play something that feels like D&D to me.
Along with my ever growing collection of old Judges Guild stuff, I have the 2nd edition core books and early splats on my wish list to see what I think of them now. The systems are definitely more streamlined than 1e, maybe at the cost of some of the batshit awesomeness.
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The penalty for success is to be bored by the people who used to snub you. |
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WyzardWhately
(Lars)
Joined: 24 Mar 2008
Posts: 260
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| I've been running 4E for a while now. Definitely a very different game. It's not bad, although I'd probably be about twice as happy with it if the skill challenge system wasn't completely fucked. |
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Nick
(Sinlocah)
Joined: 24 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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| WyzardWhately wrote: | | I've been running 4E for a while now. Definitely a very different game. It's not bad, although I'd probably be about twice as happy with it if the skill challenge system wasn't completely fucked. |
I have heard some complaints about that but I have not had any experience with it yet. I could see where it would be a problem if the characters don't have the correct skills for the challenge. I could aslo see where it would be an issue at lower levels. After to you get to fourth the system would seem to balance itself more. I do know the party will definately have to work together to get through most of the challenges. |
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WyzardWhately
(Lars)
Joined: 24 Mar 2008
Posts: 260
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Nick wrote: | | WyzardWhately wrote: | | I've been running 4E for a while now. Definitely a very different game. It's not bad, although I'd probably be about twice as happy with it if the skill challenge system wasn't completely fucked. |
I have heard some complaints about that but I have not had any experience with it yet. I could see where it would be a problem if the characters don't have the correct skills for the challenge. I could aslo see where it would be an issue at lower levels. After to you get to fourth the system would seem to balance itself more. I do know the party will definately have to work together to get through most of the challenges. |
Well, it's sort of like this. You have two options:
1. The party fails at least 80% of skill challenges.
2. The party does nothing but spam Aid Another to give one or two people obscene bonuses. This puts your success rate at near to 100 percent.
The really vulgar part of this problem is that 1. should absolutely have been detected in playtesting, and 2 doesn't seem to be the way the system is supposed to work. |
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Bhartec Redhands
Joined: 26 Mar 2008
Posts: 154
Location: Sam@ Morgantown, WV
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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I would expect that the bonus on Aid Another is not cumulative since it fills the 'misc' slot on the attack worktable, and only one bonus per slot is applicable. Sort of like how you can not apply more than one spell to effect AC and so forth. Skills likewise can not be effected by the same modifiers more than once.
Anyhow, it is not explicit but it is implied as most of the rules in 4e appear to be. That is how I would rule it as a DM anyhow. I have not witnessed this 80% failure rate you speak of, but we have not messed around with it too much I guess. So far the skills seem to range well (from -1 to 12 on my PC) and I like the fact they are streamlined. |
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Scott
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Joined: 24 Mar 2008
Posts: 389
Location: Charleston, WV
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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I've actually just done a significant update to my OD&D "player's handbook" to add new spells, new classes (the OD&D versions of Paladins, Rangers, and Illusionists), and a multiple-attacks-on-weak-creatures rule for Fighting Men. If there's any interest, I will update the house rules document to reflect these changes.
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The penalty for success is to be bored by the people who used to snub you. |
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WyzardWhately
(Lars)
Joined: 24 Mar 2008
Posts: 260
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Bhartec Redhands wrote: | I would expect that the bonus on Aid Another is not cumulative since it fills the 'misc' slot on the attack worktable, and only one bonus per slot is applicable. Sort of like how you can not apply more than one spell to effect AC and so forth. Skills likewise can not be effected by the same modifiers more than once.
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Well, that's where the discussion has gone on ENworld. I guess I should check and see what type of bonus Aid Another is, to see if it stacks...But it seems that any really obvious problems with this theory would have been caught already. I can link to the thread where a statitician demonstrates that the system as presented doesn't work, if anyone is genuinely interested.
Scott: Sounds good to me. |
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Nick
(Sinlocah)
Joined: 24 Mar 2008
Posts: 121
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| Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:59 am Post subject: |
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| WyzardWhately wrote: | | Bhartec Redhands wrote: | I would expect that the bonus on Aid Another is not cumulative since it fills the 'misc' slot on the attack worktable, and only one bonus per slot is applicable. Sort of like how you can not apply more than one spell to effect AC and so forth. Skills likewise can not be effected by the same modifiers more than once.
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Well, that's where the discussion has gone on ENworld. I guess I should check and see what type of bonus Aid Another is, to see if it stacks...But it seems that any really obvious problems with this theory would have been caught already. I can link to the thread where a statitician demonstrates that the system as presented doesn't work, if anyone is genuinely interested.
Scott: Sounds good to me. |
I have seen those discussions and I have seen the response by the people at Wizards. As I have not tried this out myself I cannot say, but I know combat does not work like 3.x and I am wondering if everyone is trying to use skills and skill challenges like 3.x which is not how they are intended to use. Aid Another is used extensively, but the problem of failure is still imminent. From the post by Wizards it seem like rping is more important. Good rping and creative thinking lower the DC. This is how I am going to run it, and since the group I am with tends to think outside the box hopefully it will work well. |
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WyzardWhately
(Lars)
Joined: 24 Mar 2008
Posts: 260
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| Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 3:01 am Post subject: |
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| Nick wrote: | | WyzardWhately wrote: | | Bhartec Redhands wrote: | I would expect that the bonus on Aid Another is not cumulative since it fills the 'misc' slot on the attack worktable, and only one bonus per slot is applicable. Sort of like how you can not apply more than one spell to effect AC and so forth. Skills likewise can not be effected by the same modifiers more than once.
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Well, that's where the discussion has gone on ENworld. I guess I should check and see what type of bonus Aid Another is, to see if it stacks...But it seems that any really obvious problems with this theory would have been caught already. I can link to the thread where a statitician demonstrates that the system as presented doesn't work, if anyone is genuinely interested.
Scott: Sounds good to me. |
I have seen those discussions and I have seen the response by the people at Wizards. As I have not tried this out myself I cannot say, but I know combat does not work like 3.x and I am wondering if everyone is trying to use skills and skill challenges like 3.x which is not how they are intended to use. Aid Another is used extensively, but the problem of failure is still imminent. From the post by Wizards it seem like rping is more important. Good rping and creative thinking lower the DC. This is how I am going to run it, and since the group I am with tends to think outside the box hopefully it will work well. |
Huh. Which response are you referring to? I might have missed one. The last I heard was from Mearls, they said they were having meetings over it and couldn't give us a response yet. |
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Nick
(Sinlocah)
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Posts: 121
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WyzardWhately
(Lars)
Joined: 24 Mar 2008
Posts: 260
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| Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 3:06 am Post subject: |
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Ah.
You're confusing your Bakers. That guy isn't a game designer. While Eberron is cool and all, his word doesn't carry any particular weight in this matter. |
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Nick
(Sinlocah)
Joined: 24 Mar 2008
Posts: 121
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| Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 3:13 am Post subject: |
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| I thought his ideas made good gm sense. I plan on forming my own opinion, but this sounds like a good place to start. |
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WyzardWhately
(Lars)
Joined: 24 Mar 2008
Posts: 260
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| Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 3:15 am Post subject: |
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| Nick wrote: | | I thought his ideas made good gm sense. I plan on forming my own opinion, but this sounds like a good place to start. |
Oh, his ideas don't suck at all. I'm just pointing out that he doesn't speak for Wizards on this matter, which is what you had implied. |
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Bhartec Redhands
Joined: 26 Mar 2008
Posts: 154
Location: Sam@ Morgantown, WV
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